Category talk:The War Between the Provinces Characters
Since most of the characters are Detinans, I wonder if it would be easier to make Category:Detinan Characters a sub-cat here and just move the non-Detinans into this cat. ML4E (talk) 17:42, June 8, 2013 (UTC) :I was actually just going to all the characters here in the interests of parallelism. TR (talk) 21:03, June 8, 2013 (UTC) :For parallelism, "Detinans" is nationality much the way we have "Videssians", "Vaspurakaners", etc. as sub-cats in "Videssos Characters". Another classification that occurs to me is "King Avram Loyalists" and "'King' Geoffrey Rebels" to parallel US and CS characters in the various ACW stories. Since they are both fictional groups, they can be sub-cated to here or to "Detinans" rather than double cat'ed as CS characters are since the latter appear in multiple, distinct stories and in OTL. We do have Kermit, a fictional non-Detinan emperor, who should go to the main character cat. If there are any fictional "historical" Detinans who predate the civil war, then we probably should create a "Detinans" sub-cat for them and put the two sides of the war as sub-cats there. ML4E (talk) 18:26, June 9, 2013 (UTC) :Bumping, in case everyone missed it. It was in the middle of the multiple edits TR did on Minor Characters TL-191. ML4E (talk) 16:32, June 10, 2013 (UTC) ::Well, to clarify, I don't necessarily mean to delete "Detinans" per se, just the "Detinan Characters". As I haven't read the series, I have no idea how many non-Detinans actually show up. If there aren't that many non-Detinans, then I can see the virtue of simply moving the Deninan Characters cat to the WBP Characters cat and call it good for now, as ML4E suggests. TR (talk) 17:35, June 10, 2013 (UTC) :I see what you mean. For consistency changing the cat to "Detinans" would be appropriate. :Since you created the story specific character template, we'll need to go through all of them to add it which would be a good time to change the cats too. I haven't read the books either so I can't say what would be appropriate but think the parallels to the ACW make sub-cats for the two factions worthwhile. Also, there are several fictional historicals in "Kings of Detina" (and at least two in there who aren't) who predate the civil war and would fit "Detinans" if we want to double cat. TF and Zhukov15 have read the series so I suggest for the two to weigh in before we do any further work. ML4E (talk) 15:09, June 11, 2013 (UTC) Soldiers of the Detinan Civil War Bump. I was going to comment that we would normally have a category like "Soldiers of the War Between the Provinces‎" when I saw these previous comments. We do have non-soldier characters such as Inward, the two Kings who I assume didn't take to the field the same way Lincoln and Davis didn't and perhaps some other civilian characters. Any thoughts? ML4E (talk) 00:04, October 3, 2014 (UTC) :It's probably a good thing for consistency. I've never read this series, so I'm at a disadvantage. TR (talk) 01:07, October 3, 2014 (UTC) :There are a handful of civilian characters. There's Inward. There's Avram and Geoffrey (who takes the field at Rising Rock as Davis did at Chattanooga, to respond to Bragg's corps commanders' demands for his removal). Thert the Butler (Rhett Butler joined the Army of Tennessee immediately after Atlanta fell, but he had not done so at the point in GWTW that corresponds to its riff in WBtP, and even if he had Thert clearly hadn't). There's Buchan and Zachary, and a trio of analogs for Webster, Clay, and Calhoun whom I'm not sure if I ever did articles on. There's Duke Brown, an analog of the governor of Georgia. A handful of camp followers and farmers and townspeople who don't even get names, and maybe two or three who do but still don't matter. That's about it. :As for non-Detinan characters, I'm pretty sure it's just Hesmucet, Kermit, Inward, and the Pat Cleburne analog. Really there's not as much breadth to the world-building as you might expect. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:08, October 3, 2014 (UTC) ::I hadn't expected many non-Detinans. There are also several embodied Gods as characters who shouldn't be included under "Detinans" even if some are worshiped by them. I think those cated as "Detinans" shouldn't be double cated under "tWbtP Characters" and a sub-cat of "Soldiers of tWbtP" created. I am willing to go through the characters to do the work if we are agreed to this course of action. ML4E (talk) 19:30, October 3, 2014 (UTC) :::I was debating the value of double catting Detinans and WBTP Characters. I went ahead and double-catted based on precedent (e.g. Lizards are still under WW Characters and Atlanteans are still under Atlantis Characters). But this category is going to be fairly self-contained--unlike a couple of Atlanteans like Hawthorne and Bierce, there aren't any truly historical people as Detinans. In light of that, I don't know, maybe we don't need to do the double catting for the Detinans. TR (talk) 19:50, October 3, 2014 (UTC) :::Ah yes, the gods; somehow I'd completely forgotten about them. They are referred to specifically as Detinan gods (and contrasted to the much weaker gods whom a handful of blonds still revere, such as the Death Lord and the Red Lady) but it's made clear from context that they're not the kingdom's national gods. Rather they're worshiped throughout the continent across the Western Ocean, from which the ethnic Detinans came along with many, many others. Best to understand their cults as analogs of Christianity, I imagine, with the blonds' gods standing in as the central figures of the Native American religions. :::As for double-catting, I'm inclined to say we should do so, as without it the proper category of "WBtP Characters" would be very anemic. Turtle Fan (talk) 16:50, October 4, 2014 (UTC) :::Okay, I think we leave it double cated. ML4E (talk) 17:33, October 4, 2014 (UTC) Sides ::Oh and for consistency the "Soldiers" sub-cat shouldn't be sub-divided by side since we don't do that for any other civil war. Is a "Detinan Serfs" cat worth while? If so, it should be sub-cated with "Slaves" along with placed here. ML4E (talk) 19:34, October 3, 2014 (UTC) :::We do have the America Civil War sub-catted by side. We haven't done that with anyone else primarily because we wouldn't have a good split in most civil wars. I think the Spanish Civil War could be at this point, but that's it. :::So I don't object to a Nothern/Southern split here, either. TR (talk) 19:50, October 3, 2014 (UTC) ::::So the two sub-cats; I don't believe its as straightforward as US and CS. I propose "King Avram Loyalists" and "Grand Duke Geoffrey Rebels". Suggestions? ML4E (talk) 17:33, October 4, 2014 (UTC) :::::Hmm, this is a tricky one. As in the real Civil War, geographic divisions don't tell the whole story: Two of the major POV characters, Doubting George and Rollant, are loyal northerners. A third, Bell (Detinan), comes from, what's it called, the province that stands in for Kentucky, which, while technically northern (just as KY was southern) is loyal. Same story for John the Hunter (John Hunt Morgan) who doesn't appear but does get a shout-out or two. There's also a shout-out for Pembert, who, like his real-world alter ego, comes from what's not even a border state. Thomas assures us at one point that there are a handful of others out there, though he doesn't name names (readers familiar with the source material can easily fill in the larger blanks, though no punny alias for David Farragut comes to mind). Also, East Parthenia exists. :::::The loyalists refer to their enemies as traitors, while the traitors refer to their enemies either as southrons (inadequate, as established directly above) or simply some variation of the phrase "those who followed Avram." I don't recall them ever giving their own kingdom an actual name such as CSA had, even though, like the Confederates, they were trying to set up a new country rather than take over the old one. :::::An executive decision on our part is needed. I would suggest Avramites and Geoffreyites. I kind of feel like that's a naming convention that's more in line with civil wars generally. Turtle Fan (talk) 15:11, October 5, 2014 (UTC) So all these years later, do we or don't we double-cat?JonathanMarkoff (talk) 02:56, October 1, 2017 (UTC) Chars list Incomplete but somewhat useful character list: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.sf.written/lDRSYgG_84k Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 08:27, May 10, 2019 (UTC)